{"id":3782,"date":"2025-01-28T16:00:54","date_gmt":"2025-01-29T00:00:54","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/queersatanic.com\/?p=3782"},"modified":"2025-01-28T16:00:54","modified_gmt":"2025-01-29T00:00:54","slug":"the-child-and-its-enemies-podcast-david-from-queer-satanic-on-power-dynamics-anarchy-and-satanism","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/qs.gehenna.ynh.fr\/?p=3782","title":{"rendered":"[The Child and Its Enemies Podcast] David From Queer Satanic on Power Dynamics, Anarchy, and Satanism"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"David From Queer Satanic on Power Dynamics, Anarchy, and Satanism\" width=\"500\" height=\"375\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/QuV0cZSUdMQ?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center wp-block-paragraph\">[<a href=\"https:\/\/thechildanditsenemies.noblogs.org\/post\/2025\/01\/28\/david-from-queer-satanic-on-power-dynamics-anarchy-and-satanism\/\">Uncorrected transcript link<\/a>]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote has-black-color has-white-background-color has-text-color has-background has-link-color wp-elements-43fda977c46dbbfb36e4b3ede2fc2fa9 is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Hello and welcome to THE CHILD AND ITS ENEMIES, a podcast about queer and neurodivergent kids living out anarchy and youth liberation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Here at THE CHILD AND ITS ENEMIES we believe that youth autonomy is not only crucial to queer and trans liberation, but to anarchy itself. Governance is inherently based on projecting linear narratives of time and Development and gender onto our necessarily asynchronous and atemporal queer lives, and youth and teens are at the center of this form of oppression.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Our goal with the podcast is to create a space by and for youth that challenges all forms of control and inspires us to create queered, feral, ageless networks of care.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019m your host, mk zariel; I\u2019m fifteen years old, and I\u2019m the youth correspondent at the Anarchist Review of Books, author of the blog Debate Me Bro, and an organizer for trans liberation in the Great Lakes Region and beyond.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>RSS feed<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"components-placeholder\"><div class=\"notice notice-error\"><strong>RSS Error:<\/strong> XML or PCRE extensions not loaded!<\/div><\/div>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Hello and welcome to the And Its Enemies, a podcast about. Queer and Neurodivergent Kids Living Out Anarchy and Youth Liberation Here at The Child and Its Enemies, we believe that youth autonomy is not only crucial to queer and trans liberation, but to anarchy itself. Governance is inherently based on projecting linear narratives of time and development and gender onto our necessarily asynchronous and atemporal queer lives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And youth and teens are at the center of this form of oppression. Our goal with the podcast is to create a space by and for youth that challenges all forms of control and inspires us to create third barrel ageless networks of care. I\u2019m your host, mk zariel. I\u2019m 16 years old, and I\u2019m a transmasculine lesbian poet, theater artist, movement journalist, and insurrectionary anarchist in the Great Lakes region.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">With me today is David from Queer Satanic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Howdy my name is David Johnson. I use he\/him pronouns. I\u2019m 30 or 40 years old, and I\u2019m a Satanist and anarchist from Seattle by way of West Texas. I spent most of the past five years as the target of a series of lawsuits by an abusive religious organization.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Oh, wow yeah, in this time of heightened state repression, I think a lot of us view state repression as something that\u2019s driven by police and that type of thing, but it\u2019s so true that high control spaces of all kinds can weaponize it, and I\u2019m so sorry that you had to deal with that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Yeah. It\u2019s a legal system, not a justice system. That is the important thing to keep in mind.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> So what exactly is \u201cQueerSatanic\u201d and what exactly is Satanism? Can you tell us a bit more about all that for people who may not be familiar?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> For sure. Yeah, I would start with what Satanism is because I think \u2014 maybe not your listeners, but in the general public &nbsp;\u2014 people have an idea of Satanism that is mostly formed by the Satanic Panic of the late \u201870s, \u201880s and \u201890s. The Satanic Panic basically was this conspiracy fantasy that there was a shadowy cabal of people at every level of society, and they were worshiping a literal, supernatural evil being called the devil, and they did ritual abuse and sacrifices and blood magic and all of this stuff. And that is almost completely untrue.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I don\u2019t think at the level of there being like a conspiracy, like lots of people like that \u2014 that\u2019s completely untrue. I think there probably have been some people who have had mental issues or they have just tried to justify the things they\u2019re doing by saying \u201cthe devil made me do it.\u201d I won\u2019t say that\u2019s never happened, but that wasn\u2019t a widespread thing. For years, that\u2019s the idea that people had about Satanism, and that\u2019s never really existed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What has existed since the late 1960s and Anton LaVey is a sort of inverted Christianity. You may have seen one of the major symbols of Satanism is an inverted cross. You just take a Latin cross, you flip it upside down, now it\u2019s sacrilegious, now it\u2019s blasphemous. That\u2019s how a lot of things work with Satanism. But because Christianity is so many different things \u2014 a lot of them in contradiction with each other, a lot of them in conflict with each other \u2014 what you are inverting can change a lot.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Satanism of Anton LaVey and the Church of Satan, which was originally set up and developed in San Francisco in the late 1960s and \u201870s, it looked at Christianity as being too egalitarian too charitable too much about denying the body. Therefore, his version of Satanism was, \u201cWe\u2019re going to do the opposite of that. We\u2019re going to be all about power and about how you have the right to hurt anybody that comes into your home.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And one of the positive things, they were actually pretty legitimately more open-minded less judgmental about all kinds of sexuality, transsexuality, asexuality, that was actually, for 1960s, pretty good. But everything else was, he was surrounded by hippies and he was looking at like the kinds of Christians that were in San Francisco and going, \u201cI want the opposite of that. I want something that worships power and might.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>I<\/em> would say that\u2019s a bad figure to pick because the one thing about Satan is that he fought God, and he didn\u2019t win. That\u2019s the in the Bible. That\u2019s the version of the story that, Satan rebelled with a third of the angels, and it didn\u2019t work out well for him. He got sent down to hell. So if you\u2019re worshiping power and might, it doesn\u2019t make a ton of sense to me that you would pick the devil for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But again, it\u2019s not really that complicated. They just look to Christianity and flip it upside down.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Alright, so that is the only form of Satanism that really exists up until closer to the present. There\u2019s also a bunch of these offshoots that come from the Church of Satan. Like the Temple of Set is a group that comes about in the \u201870s, this group, they do start to explicitly worship a supernatural deity. They\u2019re still a lot smaller, though.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And a bunch of different \u2014 just his family situation was messy. His daughter\u2014 one of his daughters? Two of his daughters? His ex? \u2014 they break off and form the First Church of Satan, the Original, the True Church of Satan, whatever it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But, when Anton dies in the end of the 1990s, Satanism just doesn\u2019t have a place to go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Up until in 2012, there was a guy named Cevin Soling who was a landlord. I guess he was looking for, like, fun things to do. He wanted to make a prank documentary film about the \u201cnicest satanists you ever met,\u201d and he met a guy named Doug Misicko, who now goes by Lucian Greaves, and him and a third guy tried to make a prank documentary film project about Satanism that at some point just became a real organization.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s what The Satanic Temple is. And over time, that sort of evolved into, \u201cWhat if Satanists were progressive?\u201d What if, instead of, I don\u2019t know, being edgelords who associate with Charles Manson and, right wing things, what if Satanists supported bodily autonomy and they supported cleaning up the side of a road and that kind of thing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So that\u2019s where we\u2019re at at the present moment of what Satanism is. There are small groups of people who call themselves Satanists, who maybe do worship a literal supernatural figure or they\u2019re demonolaters, they\u2019re Luciferians. There\u2019s a whole bunch of folks but there\u2019s not that many of us all together. We\u2019re all very weird, but most of us are nontheistic Satanists who use Satan or the devil as a figure of rebellion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And because The Satanic Temple had very good marketing, but did not live up to its ideals, it also has shed off a series of different collectives, organizations, and so forth that are trying to live up to this ideal of, \u201cIf Christianity is about worshiping power, if Christianity is about saying that God is on the side of the bankers and the soldiers and the kings and all the people who have everything, and they must deserve it\u2026 If Christianity is the prosperity gospel and saying that you\u2019re only poor if you didn\u2019t work enough \u2014 that sounds like I\u2019m on the side of the devil. And I want to choose the force that is rebelling against that choosing the force that says I will fight tyranny, no matter how omnipotent it is, because tyranny has to be opposed anywhere.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So that was a long description of Satanism. Does that make sense?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing all that history around how it was really decentralized and based around these various groups with their incredibly different orientations toward it, like anarchism, but maybe with some Less great undertones.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> I guess I would go back. You said \u201cdecentralized\u201c; the history that I\u2019m aware of is a bunch of like <em>highly<\/em> centralized small groups.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely. &nbsp;Yes. I guess mean that there are so many different takes on it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Yeah, exactly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Yeah. So can you share a bit more about the legal side of things? Like, what the legal developments have been with Queer Satanic and how you\u2019ve navigated that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> I did not get around to saying, \u201cWhat is Queer Satanic\u201d. Because it was not ever supposed to be a thing. I was someone who joined The Satanic Temple in 2019. And I was coming to it with the idea that it was an anti-reactionary group. It was like, \u201cWhat if atheism, but it had certain positive values and community?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And we even had committees, which I don\u2019t know that should be a green flag for other people. But for me, it was like, \u201cOh, there\u2019s committees! You join things, you vote on stuff. There\u2019s collaborative decision making.\u201d But at some point in early 2020, it became clear that wasn\u2019t the actual structure. It wasn\u2019t, like, the formal legal structure of it. And when a series of like past abuses in the organization came to light and the leadership chose not to respond to that with anything but insults and threats and wanting to tell people to get out or whatever, it became apparent that this was not a group that was good or healthy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so me and a few other people got kicked out. And when we got kicked out, we also met other people who had also left or been expelled locally and nationally, and found it was a much bigger deal.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I had been the social media manager of the Washington state Facebook page. I did, I would say, 90 percent of the posting for it and other platforms. When they kicked me out and didn\u2019t reach out to me to tell me anything, I basically \u2014 I couldn\u2019t log into a Discord server anymore. That\u2019s how I found out that I wasn\u2019t a member. I waited about a week. And then kept getting news articles sent to me and past statements from the founders, and found one of the founders had tried to be a cargo cult messiah in the past. Found out this whole history of Lucian Greaves or Doug Misicko where he had these white nationalist ties, and he had been really big into eugenics and forced sterilization and stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And so I posted on the Washington State chapter page, just these articles, past member statements and such. And that led to the Temple, TST, suing me and three other people almost picked at random out of this group that they had kicked out. And they just kept coming after us in a series of lawsuits starting at the federal level that got dismissed. It\u2019s\u2014 I think, so they started all of this starts around April of 2020. Right as the COVID-19 pandemic is really picking up in the United States. and it just seems so ludicrous to sue for members of (what I thought was) a legitimate religion over a Facebook page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We got it dismissed the first time in February of 2021, and they refiled. And they\u2014 I think it got dismissed again the next time in January of 2023. And they appealed that to the Ninth circuit, and they also re-filed something a couple of months later in state court. You can also pursue litigation through state court at the same time you\u2019re doing other aspects of it in federal court. That went on from April of 2020 until October 24th of 2024 when we got the last. very much. Part of the case dismissed again, and there wasn\u2019t any appeal to it. We kept winning, but they kept filing more things, and we kept having to pay our lawyer to do the legal work to answer them and get new dismissals.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And that was extraordinarily expensive stressful and time consuming.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Oh, wow that really speaks to the way that the legal system can be weaponized, even when one side is obviously being petty and trying to exert control rather than even pointing out a legitimate violation of any law.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">From a theory standpoint, I understand that The Satanic Temple has been profoundly abusive, but can Satanism itself ever be relevant to youth liberation in your opinion, or even be liberatory? Or would you say that these types of groups that have used it to be incredibly high control have tainted it for the anarchist movement?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> That\u2019s a great question. You have some experience with knowing people. In your age group who had looked into different kinds of Satanism, is that correct?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Yes, I sure have. I\u2019ve known many teenagers who have read maybe a little bit of LaVey because they wanted to be edgy and then been immediately grossed out by the bigotry and then decided not to. And that\u2019s my sole exposure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s a better reaction for sure. I don\u2019t think I covered this, and it\u2019s like the overall history, but Anton LaVey\u2019s book, <em>The Satanic Bible<\/em>. I think he wrote it like under a deadline, and so it\u2019s a bit of a mess. I would not say it\u2019s a great work of literature in general. And like you said, it\u2019s got a lot of gross stuff in there but a significant portion of the first part, which he calls the \u201cBook of Satan\u201d is this literally plagiarized from a book published in 1896 called <em>Might Is Right<\/em> by Ragnar Redbeard; his real name was Arthur Desmond.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And it\u2019s a pretty grotesque book that I think is best described as \u201cproto-fascism\u201d. So this is, about 20 years before official Mussolini-fascism comes about. But it shares a lot of ideas in common. Whites, it\u2019s yeah, it\u2019s white supremacist. It\u2019s deeply misogynistic, incredibly antisemitic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I think an interesting thing about this that sort of shows what I was saying before about the inversion being problematic: Ragnar Redbeard in <em>Might is Right<\/em> hates Christianity because it\u2019s too egalitarian, too caring, in his\u2014 in this guy\u2019s evaluation of Christianity, it cares too much about everybody and making sure everybody has basic needs met. Now, that has not been my experience with Christianity in my life. And if that is what was happening in Christianity, I think I\u2019d have a lot fewer problems with it, especially at the national political level.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But this guy looked at Christianity and said, \u201cIt\u2019s too nice. It cares too much about people.\u201d That\u2019s what LaVey took out of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I think what\u2019s interesting is that there are older appeals to Satan, Lucifer, to this idea that because the Christians, because of these things into, they\u2019re\u2014 &nbsp;they blame the devil for so much. There\u2019s like this joke about how \u201cOnce again, Satan is the logical and compassionate choice.\u201d And I think that\u2019s a thing that showed up in probably first <em>Paradise Lost<\/em> by John Milton. That\u2019s the famous one. But really throughout the 19th century, there were quite a few anarchists who brought Satan up as a liberatory figure, as someone who answers the idea that if you, as a Christian, are saying, \u201cListen to the priests. Listen to the divine right of kings. Listen to the ones that God is blessing.\u201d It is actually proper, then, to say, \u201cI choose instead as my mascot, I choose instead as, like, the symbolic figure that I will associate with\u2014 the guy who\u2019s fighting that stuff.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I don\u2019t know\u2026 have you ever read, it was these, like, fragments by F\u00e9lix Pignal. Is that a thing you\u2019ve ever come across before?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> I am not familiar, but I\u2019ll definitely do some Googling about that. I really am less than aware of\u2014 I\u2019m not too educated on Satanism as a whole, beyond the ways that it\u2019s influenced the anarchist movement, which of course have been quite a bit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> And this is that sort of thing. This is 1854 and it\u2019s called, \u201cThe Philosophy of Defiance, or A Pardon For Cain.\u201d And at least the first fragment that we have of it says, \u201cGive me any epithets you wish; I accept them all in advance. I have only one thought, and envision only one glory: it is to strike everywhere and always, as much as I can, at the principle of domination. <em>Satan, in his revolt, is my father, and, in his courage, Cain is my brother!<\/em>\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And it goes on in that idea that, \u201cIf I am going to fight domination, then the worst tyrant is God. However, God is not the only tyrant and you have to strike against all of these other ways that hierarchy and domination exists.\u201d And Mikhail Bakunin has his own problems, but he has this famous passage about \u201cBut here steps in Satan,\u201d the liberator.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So to your question, is Satanism something that is salvageable? I do not know if it is worth that. However, we can point back at earlier anarchists, socialists, people that were looking at kind of a universe around them that was based on domination and oppression, and they\u2019re picking this figure that kind of everybody was familiar with and has been imbued with great power by Christians, and then saying, \u201cI choose to be on this side and empower myself to fight against you in this way.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I don\u2019t know that it works for everybody, and I would say that for a lot of people, that idea of just you take something that is a thing you\u2019ve come to understand is not correct and you invert it \u2014 and now you keep the entire structure in place, you just do the opposite \u2014 that to me is really dangerous. That\u2019s the thing that kind of happens a lot, and the much more important thing to do is deconstruction. We have to deconstruct and pull apart these ideas that fit together and have really harmful effects. Really think about them and then reconstruct them into something that\u2019s more useful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">You can probably use Satanism to do that, but I think, like for young people in particular, not just young people, but for people looking to radically make a break with their past, they think that, \u201cIf I do the opposite, if I do the inversion of it, then I have done this,\u201d and I would caution against doing that because you don\u2019t always see how you were still preserving lots of these nasty, awful things. You\u2019re just thinking you\u2019re doing the opposite, but you\u2019ve returned to the same place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Does that make sense?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Yeah, so you\u2019re saying that there\u2019s almost a reactionary side to it because it\u2019s so much about being against Christianity rather than for anything. And therefore, from a youth liberation standpoint, it might not always be the most useful, even if it\u2019s technically salvageable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Yeah. And also you, you might want to make your own stuff because I haven\u2019t really got into this: just the ideology of Satanism from LaVey on has the actual ideology that exists is bad. It\u2019s Nazi adjacent. That\u2019s not a that\u2019s not a pejorative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That is not me trying to say something that is inflammatory. Anton LaVey worked with white nationalists for a bunch of years. He literally was a card-carrying Nazi in the 1970s. Now, he himself was not a Nazi. He just got along well with him and his ideas of like anti-egalitarianism are ones that, that obviously work well with fascists. Most Satanists are not fascists, but most Satanists haven\u2019t thought enough about what rebellion really looks like.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I think a lot of Satanists embrace this aesthetic idea of rebellion without doing any of the work of actual rebellion. If you choose in an almost, like, consumerist way, to say, \u201cI have adopted a fashion and tattoos and jewelry, and I bought this book and this altar and therefore I\u2019m a rebel\u201d \u2014 that confuses what it actually takes to rebel, which often involves lots of very boring choices, lots of friction for social interactions and things. And you can fool yourself into thinking you\u2019ve made a bigger change than you actually have just because you are distracted by the pageantry of Satanism.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That is one of the nice things about Satanism is it does have pageantry and ritual it does allow people to have more than, like, atheism, which just drains the life out of things for some people. You just lose a lot of things. Satanism is like adding something back in for some people, but it can trick you into thinking that you have made a more radical change that has actually taken place because you haven\u2019t deconstructed anything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And you\u2019ve just painted it black and said, \u201cWow, it\u2019s so different now\u201d \u2014 I would say oftentimes it\u2019s not that different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Yes, that absolutely makes sense. Thank you so much for expressing that perspective. I feel like the same can happen with statism to some extent. Like, when youth and teens see a problem with statism, they often pivot to DSA style socialism, thinking that it\u2019s the opposite of the government they\u2019ve been exposed to, rather than, questioning the institution of government.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And to some extent, that can be helpful, because, in electoral politics, getting teens to actually care about voting is a struggle. However, from an anarchist standpoint, that really misses the point of what liberatory organizing can be. So yeah, thank you for pointing out that dynamic that tends to play out with both Christian hegemony and as we can see almost every other oppressive institution. So last time we chatted about this, you shared something about the necessity of actually questioning oppression rather than simply inverting it the way Satanism might. Do you see youth doing this kind of inversion at all when it comes to ageism, and how could we grow away from it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Yeah, I do see that to some extent. With ageism I think it\u2019s pretty common to have people say, \u201cOK boomer.\u201d And I believe most of the time \u201cboomer\u201d is intended as like an ideology or like a way of viewing moving throughout the world and treating other people. But there is a way to slip into, \u201cOld people are bad\u201d and\u2014 or, \u201cPeople from a previous generation, they\u2019re the ones that are responsible for this,\u201d which I think misses, like, all kinds of power dynamics.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I think the fact that old people tend to be more conservative\u2014 Yeah, that\u2019s true. But I think Martin Luther King Jr. and Henry Kissinger were about the same age, but Kissinger got to leave, live 40, 50 years longer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And less dramatic ways, just if you are a poor working person, you probably are going to have health problems you get from work, from stress, or you won\u2019t be able to go get healthcare for something that is actually preventable and treatable. And if you\u2019re not including in your ageism analysis of all of these other things of race and class and just all of these other axes that you can be oppressed by, I think you can miss the just, like, huge amount of solidarity we have with people of all ages.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When you meet someone who is, I don\u2019t know, 85 years old and remembers what it was like when it was literally illegal to walk down the street with, something like, I think, in New York, it was like, if you had more than three pieces of clothing of like the quote, unquote, \u201cwrong gender\u201d, you could be arrested for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That was like, into the \u201860s. That\u2019s a thing that seems shocking. How can that even be? It seems ridiculous, but it was the way that people lived. And also they created lives in that time. And being able to create this cross-generation solidarity is important and useful in lots of ways.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And you can definitely miss that if you just go, \u201cYoung people are the greatest at everything. Old people don\u2019t know anything. They\u2019re bad.\u201d That\u2019s not a useful way to look at the world, even though it is simple and easy to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Yeah, one thing I see a lot with newer youth liberationists, or people who have maybe just discovered it, is this idea that every adult is by nature going to oppress youth and teens.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I always have to say no, it isn\u2019t the fact that some people are older, it\u2019s the construct of age and linear time, and the idea of compulsory education and the nuclear family that gives them this much power. Just being straight isn\u2019t in and of itself a problem, but the fact that straight people get societal power sure is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But I think with age it\u2019s harder to navigate because, it feels a lot more different to youth and teens because all they\u2019ve ever known is adults holding power over them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Yeah, exactly. And, it\u2019s just it\u2019s hard to it\u2019s hard to deconstruct something that is that just embedded in society.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Like you\u2019re saying, every law has ageism baked into it, and also all these cultural things about, just, who you\u2019re supposed to listen to and who is not supposed to be listened to. And so it, I think it\u2019s easy, and also I\u2019m sure there is some utility in just rejecting something wholesale and saying, \u201cI think all of that\u2019s wrong, and I\u2019m going to do the opposite.\u201d That\u2019s a thing. I think a lot of people go through as part of their development towards something else that is more constructive, something that is more long-term viable. But it\u2019s a thing I think people should be more aware of. Just, you don\u2019t want to\u2014 you don\u2019t want to stay in that place for very long, and it has its own dangers to it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Yes, absolutely. Especially because then you\u2019re closing yourself off to a whole network of care. One of the most youth liberationist things I\u2019d say I try to do is having equal friendships with people who are older than me, rather than always assuming that adults hold power over me. And that\u2019s really helped with unlearning internalized ageism.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But for a youth or teen who sees every adult ever as an oppressor, that doesn\u2019t really work out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah, and it\u2019s like, you can learn things. Like you said, the importance there is how you are aware of what\u2019s happening and the power relationships that are actually at play.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And like you mentioned, the thing about like joining the DSA\u2014 I think that\u2019s relevant to this, just in the sense that if you\u2019ve identified the problem is ageism, or the problem is like the powers of age, you might miss the other ways that relationships can be toxic, abusive, etc. \u201cI\u2019ve solved it. There\u2019s this one, there\u2019s this one thing. This is the one thing. And once I fix that, it\u2019s all fixed.\u201d That\u2019s not how it works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This may seem like far afield, but I sometimes see straight women in particular talking about how they wish they could just date other women, because \u201cthen they wouldn\u2019t have all of these problems in relationships.\u201d And that sort of denies the full humanity of lesbian relationships. The fact that women can be awful to each other, like in very mundane ways, just because we\u2019re human, right? And this is something that you can very easily slide into.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cThere\u2019s one problem in the world. And if I just flip that upside down or, attack that then none of the problems exist.\u201d And that\u2019s not how that\u2019s not how these things work. And that\u2019s less satisfying and harder.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">&nbsp;Sometimes things you can only learn by making the mistake, but it\u2019d be better if you could learn it before making the mistake.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Yes, absolutely. I think there\u2019s something to be said. The idea that all bigotry comes back to the same societal forces of, coercive control and hierarchy. But at the same time, when that\u2019s always the rhetoric, it can be hard to address things for what they are. Like, for example, when I was first organizing and hadn\u2019t found anarchism quite yet, so I was in a lot of neoliberal spaces whenever I\u2019d mention the existence of homophobia, whatever What people would say was, would just be, \u201cOh, homophobia is the fault of capitalism and capitalist beauty standards. And once capitalism is over, homophobia will be too.\u201d And it\u2019s but what about homophobia in this very affinity group that we have the choice to not do so often? It\u2019s a way that people let themselves off the hook in some ways. Do you see that dynamic happening at all with the. Reductive inversion of Satanism.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Yeah, I\u2014 and also like people just, in general, so overwhelmingly\u2014 Satanism is, it\u2019s a very white space. And there are some very good historical reasons for that. Again, when Anton is saying, \u201cI think the Nazis are fun and white nationalists are not a problem,\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">that\u2019s going to push out lots of other kinds of people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I don\u2019t think it\u2019s just that. I think a big part of it is that going back to that thing of\u2026 you\u2019ve embraced this identity of rebellion, but not done anything else. And I think that means that a lot of people coming into it feel like they\u2019ve done all the work, and they haven\u2019t done the work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve read the zine red flags, but it\u2019s all about ML groups, especially in smaller Midwestern cities. So obviously I read it because I am in the Great Lakes region and have to deal with this on a regular basis. But their main thesis was that often people especially with white\/cis privilege will end up joining an ML group to feel like they\u2019re \u201cdoing something\u201d &nbsp;but completely ignore the inaction of said group, or the fact that all that the group does is, like, table with zine at other people\u2019s events and then leave.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Yeah. There can be a similar energy with the inversion around Satanism.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I think, once you\u2019ve done this thing where you\u2019ve said, \u201cThe problem with this group is that they\u2019re Christians. The problem is groups that worship God,\u201d right? This is like a easy thing. I think a lot of ex-Christians do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I think they locate the problem in their church was they believe in God, and that\u2019s a superstition. And \u201cYou, you believe in Sky Daddy,\u201d or they say whatever their thing is, right? \u201cChristians are inherently bad,\u201d but then you say, \u201cWe\u2019re not Christians, so we won\u2019t be bad. It\u2019s okay if we have the power because we aren\u2019t the bad ones, so we\u2019ll do good things with it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">As an anarchist, I think that\u2019s really bad that\u2019s a really dangerous, harmful thing. As if you haven\u2019t reconstructed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> I don\u2019t like the existence of power. That\u2019s harmful. Not the specific person who holds it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Yeah, I trust myself to some degree, but I don\u2019t trust a future version of myself that has unaccountable power over people for years, especially. And in Satanism that happens quite a bit because there aren\u2019t these institutional guardrails because people in these groups are coming up with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And, yeah, it\u2019s very easy to come up with a group that works and is healthy and good when everybody agrees and things are going well. And it\u2019s really hard to come up with something where, \u201cBut what happens if we hate each other and what happens if this person ends up being a domestic abuser?\u201d What happens if those hypotheticals really need to be worked out ahead of time? And they often are not.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And because this is a thing that people they adopt, like \u201cI am a Satanist now,\u201d and they mean it. They think in the same way some would say, \u201cI\u2019m Jewish. I\u2019m Muslim,\u201d but I don\u2019t think people a convert as easily to Judaism or Islam as to Satanism, supposedly, and also people don\u2019t leave those things as easily. So these groups, these spaces, tend to have a lot of people coming through and burning out and cycling through and there\u2019s no institutional knowledge and no institutional accountability there. And that\u2019s hard work. It\u2019s really hard work to set up a group where people are actually equitable and accountable to each other, particularly when, one person is doing 90 percent of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019m sure you deal with that all the time in other spaces that you\u2019re in. Where like, you want things to be fair, but there\u2019s a misalignment of like how much people care or can give into some project. And so you have to balance that between like, \u201cHow do I, the person who\u2019s doing most of the work not take advantage of other people?\u201d And also vice versa, like, \u201cHow do I contribute to something that I care about when I don\u2019t have the bandwidth to really manage it and own it or whatever?\u201d And these messy things are not simple answers and they\u2019re not solved by just going, \u201cWe don\u2019t believe in God or we reject Christianity\u201d \u2014 that doesn\u2019t solve it because that\u2019s almost like a veneer or a layer on top of this more fundamental thing of our hierarchy, accountability, interpersonal relationships.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Yeah, so speaking of how we organize interpersonally, I was just wondering how did you organize as a kid and teen? What was your relationship to spirituality and to anti repression? And did you identify with the anarchist label at all? And what did that mean for you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> I, so I am the son of a Southern Baptist pastor.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I was in church three times a week, Sunday morning, Sunday evening, Wednesday night. And even back then one of the things that I would say, and I would still say this to this day, is that \u201cI\u2019m not spiritual, but I am religious.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Like, I did not have a deep connection to spirituality then. I don\u2019t have it now. I just thought that\u2019s the way the world works. God exists and does miracles and whatnot. And it wasn\u2019t until I was in my late teens. And I think what it was I was studying the Bible and I was like actually studying like textual traditions and the documentary hypothesis and like Markan Priority and like these ideas about how\u2014<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When you\u2019re a Southern Baptist, when you\u2019re an evangelical, like, the text is the whole thing. It\u2019s perfect. But then when you study, that\u2019s obviously not true. Like, some sects, they use different versions of books. And there\u2019s also different not just translations, but, like, different versions of things you are translating. That kind of chipped away at it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then the other thing was there was a guy who was about my age and he unfortunately got cancer in his knee and they had to amputate his leg from the knee down. And then his cancer still came back. And I remembered was everybody was praying for the cancer to go away. They\u2019re basically praying for a miracle that God would intercede and suspend the natural rules of physics and biology and whatnot. To cure this young man of cancer, but nobody had faith that they would\u2014 that God could regrow his leg. And maybe this seems like silly to someone hearing this, that that\u2019s obvious, but that was the first time that I realized that people didn\u2019t really believe in miracles. They just believe that, like, you might get lucky about something. And so that was like the beginning of my split from conservative Christianity and that worldview.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And what\u2019s interesting is that because it was Southern Baptist \u2014 I don\u2019t know what the reputation is in other parts of the country \u2014 in West Texas, they\u2019re pretty independent. Each individual church controls their own budget. For example they, if you\u2019re a member, you get to see what everybody\u2019s going to do with all the money. You get to vote on it. You get to have deacons, which are in effect, they\u2019re like elected people that have extra responsibility to pay more attention to budgets and do things like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And my father even was someone who his organizational style \u2014 as again, this is a Southern Baptist pastor in West Texas \u2014 someone would come to him and say, \u201cHey, can we do this?\u201d And he would say, \u201cWhat do you require from me to do that?\u201d And they would say, \u201cNothing,\u201d and he\u2019d say, \u201cGreat, go do it.\u201d His organizational style was, like, trying to get other people to do things for themselves.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I have come to find that is not the typical church experience. I understand also why people have many worse experiences with their own religious upbringing. Because this was if you wanted to do something, you got people together, you informed other people what you were doing to see if it was already happening or you needed support or whatever, and then you did it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But it wasn\u2019t until I was in my mid-20s and got through a whole like anti-theist period. Like, I\u2019ve shamefully had a Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens and like \u201canyone who believes in anything supernatural is foolish\u201d, that sort of thing. But I did get through that to a place where I no longer feel that way and no longer act that way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And, I guess the thing that I see that is most relevant is how people act and treat one another, especially within structures. I haven\u2019t seen a huge difference between how atheists and Satanists and Christians treat one another because you have really rebellious Christians who break the law to make sure that immigrants can be protected from authorities or that they go out and they like march and put themselves in the harm\u2019s way of police batons. And you have atheists who are, transphobic and you have Satanists who are just like, \u201cWe have to follow the law no matter what.\u201d And that, that\u2019s how I guess I got to a place where anarchism is important in my life and seeing that power structures, like the way that like power structures exist is like the fundamental thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then people choose their own veneer, which may or may not be relevant. But the real thing is how people relate to one another and have power and accountability with each other.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Yes, absolutely. I am. I was really struck by what you said about the limits of faith based beliefs and how even when we\u2019ve been in a community where that\u2019s really common, it seems people don\u2019t necessarily literally believe that and maybe they\u2019re there for the community. Like I am remember having similar revelations not so much around religion because I didn\u2019t really grow up with that but even around people\u2019s political views because I was raised with some pretty typical liberal beliefs before I found anarchism and often I\u2019d be discussing politics with people, and I would come to the conclusion like, \u201cOkay, nobody thinks this is going to work because people are still acknowledging the harms that state power is causing, tet they\u2019re still advocating for states to exist not because they necessarily believe it but to have community.\u201d So in a way it functions similarly even to ageism and\u2026 Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So on that topic what advice would you have for kids and teens who maybe have an interest in Satanism or alternative spirituality or anarchism?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> This is going to sound negative, but probably Satanism is not for you. That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying. Probably Satanism sounds cool. And I would caution you that it\u2019s a lot more cringe than you think. And that\u2019s okay. It\u2019s okay to like cringe things, but you will run into people who think Satanism is the coolest thing that\u2019s ever been. That it\u2019s the greatest idea. And I do want to shoot that down. It\u2019s just another thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In a lot of very boring ways, we as a counterculture community, we do deeply suck. And alternative spirituality I think has some of these same problems.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">You can, to be clear, find places and communities that like give you joy and fill things within your heart, your soul, and your needs for ritual, magic, etcetera. Like these things are possible to exist. But it is a lot more boring and the problems that like you\u2019re leaving behind will probably be there at whatever you show up at. And I think that we really need to do a better job of thinking about identifying abusive organizations and even collectives than we are at present.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Did you listen to a talk I did with the \u201cMolotov Now!\u201d folks a couple of years ago about a general about cults?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> I actually have not, but I did read your zine on the Queer Satanic website about how to identify high control spaces, especially the bit about ML groups, because I\u2019m not sorry if this is an overshare, but at the time I knew quite a few people who were involved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In an ML group that was starting to have increasingly bigoted views, and I was trying to find resources for them and came upon your scene actually right before I joined the channel zero network.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Yeah, and then I think as an anarchist, it\u2019s very easy for me to say, \u201cOh, yeah, ML groups they\u2019re the ones that they\u2019re all messed up.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But this also happens in anarchist spaces. And it also happens with, I think in our conversation, it also involves like business cults, because that\u2019s a thing that, you get out into the working world and it\u2019s wild how many people, like they\u2019ll say completely unironically, \u201cWe\u2019re like a family,\u201d and that\u2019s super toxic in itself both what they\u2019re saying and the way they mean it, and it operates in this way that is really exploitative and I think that is a thing that as you are going out into the world and trying new things, you really have to keep at the front of your mind. Like, \u201cHow is this group structured now,\u201d especially formally, but also informally.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">You have to, like, not fall into the belief that, \u201cWe are ontologically good. We are at our core, essentially good. Therefore, whatever we do is good.\u201d Because that just makes you miss stuff often because there are these really abusive dynamics and at the fringes, they often are <em>not<\/em> abusive. The fringes they\u2019re nice. They\u2019re fun. They\u2019re just, like, cute things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There\u2019s an example that I just remembered that today of a pretty famous called The Church\u2014 \u201cThe Process Church of the Final Judgment\u201d. It\u2019s like back in the 1960s and they had these like coffee shops and they would print these, essentially, zines. These like newspapers. And for anybody that came and visited that, that seemed like a very cool thing. \u201cOh, this is\u2014 it\u2019s artistic. And isn\u2019t this fun?\u201d But then the people actually working in those coffee shops, and the higher up you got in this org, the closer, the more sinister it got, the way they treated people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I don\u2019t want to say that there is nothing about Satanism or alternative spirituality, or especially anarchism\u2014<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I am a Satanic anarchist. I\u2019m a Satanist, anarchist, anti-fascist. That is what I am. That is how I move through the world. However, I feel like I run into people often, especially young people who have recognized that the world around them, what they have been taught was not true that Christianity does not work the way that they were taught, or \u201ccapitalism is abusive\u201d, etcetera.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But then they go, \u201cIf this isn\u2019t true, the opposite must be true.\u201d And that is something that you really have to work at not falling into. You have to build your own things. You have to, \u2014when you join other things \u2014 be skeptical, all the time be skeptical, about yourself and the way you\u2019re treating other people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I know this is not super, I don\u2019t know, like, \u201cRah-rah.Hhere\u2019s the thing you need to go out and do.\u201d It\u2019s not empowering in that way, but I do think it is important that as you find the things that you like and love and fill you with joy and enthusiasm that you still keep this thing in the back of your head of just: what else is happening here? Where\u2019s the money going? Who is actually making decisions here? How could I change things if I wanted to?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because it\u2019s a very easy, human, thing to just silence all of that to go, \u201cI\u2019m sure everything\u2019s fine,\u201d up until the point where you find out that things are not fine. They have not been fine for a long while.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Yes, absolutely, and I do think that\u2019s empowering in its own way, the idea that we can question the groups we\u2019re in and make sure to be in spaces that feel genuinely supportive and horizontally structured, and don\u2019t just mirror the hierarchies we see around us even if that can be the most accessible thing to do. Sometimes, especially as a youth and teen, because MLs neoliberal spaces are, the groups on college campuses and the groups you might see at your middle or high school. But we always have the choice to organize somewhere that feels genuinely liberatory.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So I know you mentioned your \u201cMolotov Now!\u201d appearance, but is there anything else you\u2019d like to plug or share?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>David:<\/strong> Yeah, it definitely listen to \u201cMolotov Now!\u201d. I\u2019m not part of that. They\u2019re just a fun podcast I listened to and they were kind enough to let me be a guest.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">My, my big thing is that \u201cQueer Satanic\u201d as it existed previously was just fourpeople being sued. We\u2019re no longer being sued, which is great. Which also means that what we are beyond that wibbly-wobbly idea is up in the air.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What is not up in the air is that we are still paying off our legal costs. So we still are deep in the hole to our lawyers, who were good enough to work for us without us fully paying them. But if you can help us to pay our lawyers down please visit QueerSatanic.com or at campsite.bio\/QueerSatanic<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That will also have articles be written about other Satanic organizations that aren\u2019t abusive, cool satanic orgs that are doing things like the Capital Area Satanists in the Washington, D.C. area. They do moon rituals, lunar rituals, which is just like a regular way to get together and re-center themselves. Global Order of Satan is an international group of kind of like local collectives who, like, federate and work with each other.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There are people that are out there doing cool things, and we try to bring more attention to them. But if you\u2019ve heard this, you\u2019re like, \u201cWow, that sounds so great, David. I appreciate what you did so much.\u201d The best way to show that appreciation would be to give us money for legal costs.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>mk:<\/strong> Yeah thank you so much for sharing your youth liberation journey and all of your advice on figuring out what spaces are high control and how to engage with spirituality in an actually meaningful way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So this has been David from Queer Satanic and you\u2019re listening to The Child and His Enemies. If you want to learn more or join us on Discord and Signal, our website is the thechildanditsenemies.noblogs.org. I\u2019m mk zariel. Thanks for listening. Stay safe, stay feral.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>[Uncorrected transcript link] Hello and welcome to THE CHILD AND ITS ENEMIES, a podcast about queer and neurodivergent kids living out anarchy and youth liberation. Here at THE CHILD AND ITS ENEMIES we believe that youth autonomy is not only crucial to queer and trans liberation, but to anarchy itself. Governance is inherently based on&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":3783,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[6,8,997,1060,1090,1112],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-3782","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cults","category-guest-article","category-podcast","category-satanism","category-sprout","category-the-child-and-its-enemies"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/qs.gehenna.ynh.fr\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3782","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/qs.gehenna.ynh.fr\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/qs.gehenna.ynh.fr\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/qs.gehenna.ynh.fr\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/qs.gehenna.ynh.fr\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=3782"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/qs.gehenna.ynh.fr\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3782\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/qs.gehenna.ynh.fr\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=3782"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/qs.gehenna.ynh.fr\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=3782"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/qs.gehenna.ynh.fr\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=3782"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}